The 2012 Orioles Winter Thread

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20
13-01-19/sports/bal-orioles-news-an
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Screw it! Just go there. It won't let me copy/paste it OR type it out here. This site annoys me more every day.

I guess I've slept through the winter (hibernating in Florida). I just didn't see any "big named" impact free agents available this offseason that would help the O's. At least not young veterans who don't come with an abundance of issues and baggage, or those prima dona types who will disrupt team chemistry..

Josh Hamilton is a feared hitter. He's also a drink away from becoming irrelevant. At what cost both in terms of cash and team chemistry is he worth it?

Zack Greinke is a head case. He has declined over the past four seasons and has has an anxiety problem. One loud "BOO" and he could go Ankiel on you. Its not worth the risk.

B.J. Upton strikes out as much as Mark Reynolds and has a worse OBP. He wasn't going to supplant Adam Jones in CF and he wants to play CF. The Orioles already sport 3 gold glove outfielders and Upton isn't one. No upgrade here.

Nick Swisher is a loose cannon. Probably a really nice guy too. He may have been an upgrade offensively if he fit into the clubhouse, but defensively, he's not better than Chris Davis at 1B, Nate McLouth in LF and Nick Markakis in RF. Does he play 2B?

I guess DD could have traded Dylan Bundy and Manny Machado to land Justin Upton or Michael Morse.

I didn't understand the whole non-interest in Mark Reynolds. It appears that the O's players didn't either. They seemed to really like him. It makes me believe that DD had something bigger in mind and it backfired on him. Personally, I'd like to have that one back.

The simple truth is that DD and Buck have got to let these young guys play. There are NO holes on this team. There are very talented young players at every position, some 3 and 4 deep. It has to play out so that if there are holes, they can be identified. You can't be proactive when you're in a discovery stage.

That's why you have to admire what DD has done. For those questionable players, there are solid ML back-ups.

For instance, if Chris Davis proves to be a liability at 1B, the O's can turn to Travis Ishikawa, Steve Pearce and Conor Jackson among others. But, if you bring in a 1B type via trade or free agency, you'll never know if Davis is the answer or not.

At 2B, everyone hopes that Brian Roberts returns healthy and back to his 2009 form. Unlikely. So, DD brought in Alexi Casilla to compete with Ryan Flaherty for the back-up role. If Casilla earns the starting job (yes if Roberts goes down), he offers the club 40 steal potential and great defensive from the number nine hole. And top prospect Jonathan Schoop is not far from prime time either.

If J.J. Hardy only hits 20-25 homeruns and hits .250, along with his gold glove defensive, he'd still be a top 10 at SS. And with Machado already in the ML, a shift to 3B is probably in Hardy's future if he stays in Baltimore.

LF is an enigma. The Orioles have a ton of potential here. Someone needs to take the LF job and run with it. Nate McLouth was a gold glove all-star hitter before injury. He's healthy again. Nolan Reimold has shown flashes but hasn't been healthy. He may return this spring. Henry Urrutia is a switch hitting Cuban defector who has the tools to be a plus defender and solid hitter. Conor Jackson was a number one pick who's career was crippled by an unusual illness. He has overcome that and still has all the tools.

In regards to the pitching staff, there are so many young arms with potential, the only way to sort it out is to let them pitch. There are 16 pitchers vying for ML roster spots already. The list includes Hammel, Chen, Gonzalez, Tillman, Wada, Jurrjens, Johnson, Matusz, Hunter, Patton, Clark, Arrieta, Britton, McFarland, Bundy and Gausman. Sure there a few that will fill bullpen roles and those who will return to the minor league affiliates. But some cannot be discounted this spring. DD and Buck must be aware of contracts and options too or risk losing some of them. Consequently, bringing in more competition isn't necessarily a good thing unless the incoming pitcher is an impact player (like Kyle Lohse).

So, whether or not you believe that the O's can win all of those close games again, or extra inning games again, you have to admit that the team's ceiling hasn't been reached yet. Not even close. And the fact that the minor leagues are now producing players who can help at the ML level, that ceiling remains at a very high level.

Its possible that the O's outscore their opponents this season right out of the gate and don't rely too heavily on all of those close games. Its also possible that the pitching staff (and the rest of the roster for that matter) stays relatively healthy, and the team boasts 5 starters with at least 10 or more wins instead of one. Although you have to admit winning 93 games with only one pitcher having won 10 games is purely spectacular from an organization's and baseball perspective. IMO, its simply that there is real talent in Baltimore.

So much so, that guys like Matusz and Arrieta in particular, may be using their last chance this season to prove they belong. They may have the tools to play at the highest level, but will have to earn the right to make the team either out of spring training or some time during the year.

Its nice to have choices again. The competition can only help most of these players. Frankly, I see this Orioles team as a team that will develop into a contender for years to come. And with that development, will come identifiable needs. That's when you fill them.

Understand your point. Just don't agree. There is no reason in any of those instances to not go out and get a guy that every single person on this board pencils in every day to start, or every 5th day to oitch and is confedent that player will perform at a higher rate than we got from that position last year. Notise i said any and not every. I simply wanted them to pick one. Just one, and not gamble or hope. i really don't thinkthat is too much toask when there were plenty of guys out there that only cost money. I have high hopes for Jackson and even some of the others but hope is not a plan. And that is where spring ends and summer starts. 

If your hope turns out to be right, and you bought a player in that position, then you change positions for one of them, or you deal them. If they really were all you thought, then you can probably get something back that fills one of the other needs you have. Each and every one of thse guys except the cuban defector has had a chance to be that guy and didn't get it done here or somewhere else. Most of them have an excuse, but nothing to tell us that they will return to form. McLouth flashed some potential of it last year and he came back very cheap so he neither hinders us getting someone else, or hurts us. Just throwing a bunch of potential guys at a position is no assurance that any of them is going to come through. These type player should be on your bench proving themselves, not starting for a playoff returning team that is trying to make the next step.

I know i am being far too logical and businesslike for sports, and players can and do improve and excel, and they need a chance to do so, but in sport with so many players and pieces, yet so many individual battles, your players have to have a chance to win most of thos battles. Ours don't really, or at least have not in the bulk of their work. I am hopeful and i liove watching young players break out, but the fact is that most of them don't. I honestly saw nothing in Ryan Flaherty that made me think he was just about to break out, but he did come straight from the Cubs AA team to the majors. In any case these are the guys we are bringingto the party so lets hope they get better looking as we drink...

Even though all of us would like to see a more aggressive approach with the O's and getting the marquee guys, it is really interesting to me what Fred Flinstone has done since taking over. The man doesnt sit still with the team, its just not the juicy stuff, but he is adding depth and more importantly competition. Competition brings out the best in every one. I mean in reality the Orioles have only what 5 players on this team that are locked in any where and I would say just about all of them come from the offensive side of the spectrum. Nobody is unseating Matt Wieters behind the plate. Nobody is pushing Adam Jones or Nick Markakis in CF and RF resepctively. J.J. Hardy is locked in at SS and Manny Machado is all but locked in at 3b. But they want to try Chris Davis at 1b, if that fails all he is locked into is a spot on the lineup but not a position.

There are no guarantees with Brian Roberts and while they are saying all the right things about him as they did last year. They are trying to find another 2nd baseman in house. They want a utility guy that can hopefully bring a different dimension to the team by being able to bunt and or steal bases. Lf is in no ways settled and even if it was they need somebody capable of playing all 3 outfield positions. There also is no lock on the back up catcher position, even though Teagarden should have a leg up.

Than when you turn to the pitching staff, tons of options and competition, nobody is sketched into any one spot in the rotation. While it looks like we may know who 4 of them are we dont know the order of them. JJ is gonna be the closer unless the arbitration thing goes south and they move him, doubtful though. Patton should have a spot in the bullpen, you have to figure Ayala, O' Day and probably Strop figure in some how again for next year but there seems to always be a suprise guy that makes the team out of nowhere at least for the bullpen.

LOL again I say. Just one position taken care of is al I ask. Doesn't have to be a marquee name. just a solifd veteran that can be penciled in every day and not hurtyou until yuor hopeful player proves himself. Just one. We banked on every positions hopeful to pan out. not likely. Not remotely.

And as i said most of the players everyone listes as could be's, have had their chance and didn't perform. Not even Machado is a high level player. At least he wasn't last year. He wsa howevre an upgrade over what was thre, and that is all I ask. Upgrade the weakest position to get th biggest overall ban for the buck. That woul have been a 2b leadoff hitter or a LF leadoff hiitter. if you think Casuilla ia that guy then OK I hope so too. if you think McLouth is that guy I think you may be fooling yourself, but I still hope you ar right. And we did not emply a professional hitter to fill the 3, 4 or 5 spot as DH. There are still a few guys out there that could make this club more solid and stable. Bourne is proabalby the only bonafide leadoff hitter, but there are several professional hitters. For that matter Thome is still out there. So is Rolen and a few others. I know they ar epast their prime, bu they are soolid smart professional hitters that know how to hit a sac fly for an RBI instead of an inning ending DP. i I had a nickel for every time we hit into a dp with 2 on and no outs.. Anyway, if you continue to hope instead of having a stable plan B, then you will be unstable. Day to day, weel to week, year to year.

I am not mad, and will root root root for thse Orioles, I just think you cant use only one strategy to build your team. FA is a good way to help as long as you don't spend gobsof momney or let all your young talent go to do it. A position a year is a good pace to go along witha trade and player development .Thats all.

I wish we'd at least take a shot at Casey Kotchman. I know he was terrible last year, but he's only 29 and he's been a pretty decent average hitter with a good glove. He'd be cheap, I would think, and who knows -- he might be an option if Davis doesn't work out at first base or needs to go back to the outfield because of an injury.

Skins, no where did anyone say "hope." I'm saying develop. Rolen, Thome, Lee and the like would block that development. The players are already in place. They need an opportunity to play it out. To develop. This group is not Berken, Bergesen, Snyder and Bell types. These are legitimate young players with real tools. Some will not succeed. Those players will represent the holes needing repair.

If you want hope, then sign Hamilton, Greinke, Upton or anyone for 5 years and at least $80.0m, and then hope that they play up to that contract or don't get hurt. I get the mentality that the Orioles made the playoffs and one good piece may put them over the top. But, who would be that piece? And at what cost in cash, players or team chemistry?

I read, heard, and clearly understood DD when he said he was looking to acquire a middle of the lineup bat. There wasn't a good one at the right price available.

Do you spend anyway because an average player may be more dependable now than a young developing player? Kelly Johnson at 2B instead of Casilla or Flaherty? Shane Victorino at the ridiculous salary the Red Sox paid for him over Nate McLouth? Do you trade Dylan Bundy and/or Machado for Michael Morse, Justin Upton or Jason Kubel? Would you sign Scott Rolen and play him ahead of Manny Machado because he's a veteran? I say no to all of that, and if anyone likes veteran players, its me.

Who is it that would/would have qualified as an upgrade? Most of us would agree that Bourn and Lohse would be upgrades. But not at 5 years and $75m for a 30 year old Bourn or a 3 year deal for a 34 year old pitcher.

And why would anyone want Casey Kotchman? Davis, Ishikawa, Pearce, Betemit and Jackson are all better options than he is and each one is already part of the organization.

The Orioles must have a dozen outfielders and two dozen pitchers coming to spring training. DD has simply stockpiled "deep depth." Some of these players need a change of scenery, others need another opportunity. Some are trying to resurrect a career derailed by injury. But everyone of them were "real" prospects at some point. There's been the international route too. So, the strategy of catching lightning in a bottle is at least a calculated one. So, until the "right" acquisition comes along where the spending is worth it, a thrifty one that relies on competition, development and team chemistry. And of course, the Buck Showalter touch.

Again, I understnd your postition and respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it. And yes many of the posts are strewn with the word hope. We hope Brian Roberts comes back and is effective, we hope Reimold comes back, we hope any of those castoff players we signed turns it around, we hope Mclouth.... too many questions and not enough dependable situations. We wait for players to play it out every year and none of them have since Markakis.


Do you spend anyway if the price is not right. YES. Not to fill every position. To fill the one position of most need. In other words if you have 5 positions that you would grade a B or better, two C's and two D's, then you may have to overspend, or to be more correct, pay market price, but if you can turn one of the D's into a B it is a significant upgrade and worth it. You may think some players got overpaid but the fact is that is the market price and if you want a player in a certain position you have to pay. I said several years ago we should be drafting nothing but pitchera and 2nd and 3rd basemen until we find a real no bull top prospect at each position. We didn't. We drafted pitcher after pitcher after pitcher and still don't have a pitcher.


I disagree that the current group of minor league players is any better than the players you name. Some of them were very highly thought of before they proved they couldn't do it. So far none of them have done it so they are exactly the same. Every indication is that Bundy is a future ace, and I blelieve he is. Machado is a fine young player as well. After that its a crap shoot and to be honest there have been a few other can't miss guys pass through here that never panned out as well. Remember Jeffery Hammonds? How about Adam Loewen, Chris Smith. Or how about this one Alex Ochoa. He certainly is a comparable talent to anyone we have. A few games in September and poof.  Look I love young players, but you simply can't have a bunch of them and expect them to fill in these holes that are gaping when they arent even that highly regarded. The two most important batting order positions are leadoff and #4 and we have neither. Can we get by? Of course we can as we can't forfeit, but we didn't have to. We do not have anyone that would be blocked and it be a big deal in the OF or at 2b. We just don't. We don't have a young Evan Longoria being held back by an aging veteran.


Would I have signed Kelly Johnson? Absolutley, but not just him. The market wsa not deep, but there were upgrades to waht we had, and what we have. There were at least 20 guys better than Flaherty and certainly half dozen better than Casilla. He is a good base stealer if he can get on. I think he will get considerable playing time if healthy, and I am betting he doesnt have 20 SB. We just don't run enough to take advantage of it and he doesn't get on base enough to hit leadoff, butthen neither does anyone else rumored to hit there except Markakis who really is more productive a little down the lineup.


I have never been a big believer in a change of scenery unless you are leaving a bad clubhouse like Boston or Miami. I am a big believer in proven talent. And I don't no how many opportunities it takes before we believe the guy just isn't quite major league material. Half the pitchers you mention have had years of chances. Like I said it is not impossible that one or two of them get better. It's highly unlikely they make the leap from terrible to very good. as for Rolen and the like. We need a professional hitter and I don't care if he doesn't own a glove so no I don't want him playing in front of AMchado but again Machado wasn't really that good last year. Of course he was thrown into the fire and no matter what he did you can't hold it against him but he was wild throwing from third to first, and only acrobatic stops and stretches by Reynolds saved him from having a lower fielding percentage than anyone other than Betemit there. He did have great reflexes and held his own at the plate for a guy that again didn't even tear up AA pitching. I think he will be fine but what if he isn't. You wouldn't like to have Rolen DH'ing and ready to fill in a couple weeks if needed?  


A for the Buck Showalter touch that remains to be seen. So far he has followed the Buck Showalter blue print. Take over a team, shake it up, go to the playoffs in your second full year ahead of schedule. Now act three is regress the next year because you didn't make the necessary moves to get better. You depend on the guys that got you there the year before, and your overacheiving team lets you down because they just were not that good and had obvious holes that you didn't fill, and you get fired. Next guy comes in, makes those changes, and goes to a WS. He is pretty much 3 for 3 in the scenario, and so far 4-4 up to this point in the play. He did get an extension so maybe he wont get fired this year, but all the rest is in place. Its actually good for us because that means next year we are WS bound. Not so great for Buck though. Let's hope he learned something along the way. I mean he obviously did because he got a new deal at the right time. When he was at his high point. Too bad we don't make trades the same way and trade guys when they are still worth something instead of giving them the "opportunity to play it out"    

And I do admire whatr DD did last year. He inherited a bad situation an madea lot of moves to bring in players who for short spurts gave us a couple good weeks  at a time which was enu=ough to have that great year. i mean we played like 80 guys and a lot of them he brought in. he kind of had to do that becaue he was fresh back i nthe gme and wasn;t going to be able to make any big deals and did not appear in a position to make a big splash FA signing because we didn't appear ready to take advantage of it. Then we made the playoffs and have shown with a little production we know how to win. There is no reason to try to do it with smoke and mirrors and people that come in for a few a weeks and have success because the pitchers don't know them well yet. Again I like the yugn guys and I hope they do well, bt there were plenty of players out there, not necessarily big name or huge money guys, that would have helped this team by being consistant, playing every day, filling their role in the lineup, and allowing the player we already have to slot into their best spot in the lineup.


We still may do something but it is not looking good so we are going ot have to depend on these unproven, unhealthy, and castoff players and hope that a couple of them had legit reasons for their down turn and are over them. I do think will sign a veteran DH type whether it is Thome or Lee or someone like that aftr they figure out one of the stocked contending teams are not calling and they gt the itch to play when ST gets fully under way. 

Yup close as I can tell right now its about 19 OF and 35 pitchers! Doesn't mean there is a solis player after laster years legit starters in the whole bunch.

I really don't understand the extreme pessimism, skins. You can't just assume all these guys will bust anymore than you can assume that they will all succeed. All these guys showed something special last season and they should be given the chance to show it again, they have earned that chance. There will be plenty of competition and they now have the confidence because they know what they are capable of doing. It has to play out and the odds are several of these guys will rise up to claim permanent positions and several won't, that's when you make changes and fill holes. Basically what OTM has said. That process has to be allowed to take place.

There aren't major holes on this team. You'd like Britton in Norfolk but he isn't bad for the fifth starter. Casilla is better starting in Norfolk rather than in the majors but he's good enough to not hurt you. McLouth is ideal as the fourth outfielder rather than starting in left field but he has the potential to be above average. Valencia could be a good option against lefties but Rolen is far better in that role.

OTM got it right when he said that this team is in the discovery stage. Certainly, that's where management thinks this team is. Thing is, should they be at the discovery stage or should they be thinking they can make some noise? On the one hand, we've got a lot of potential guys on the roster. On the other hand, we were a playoff team last year. If you're good enough to make it to the playoffs and didn't lose much in the offseason and your guys didn't get old, then why wouldn't you try to get there again? If you are then you can't afford to just be in the discovery stage with a bunch of guys that rely on potential. You simply need proven performers. We could use a few at second base, left field, third base, DH and in the rotation. Machado has a lot of potential and should be good but it would be nice to have a backup plan if he struggles.

Guys like Urrutia, Avery, Hoes, Ishikawa, Jackson, etc could all work. But they should be emergency plans and not backup plans if you want to make a serious run. I think that Hammel, Chen, Tillman, Gonzo and Britton is a promising rotation that should be above average. But you'd like something more proven.

If you're at the stage where you want to make a serious run then you don't want to gamble over whether a lot of guys are boom and bust. Each player needs a significant amount of time before you determine whether or not he's busted and you can't get those games back. You need to go into the season with a proven option because if you don't figure out a bunch of positions before the all star break it may be too late.

Ifs and buts will drive you nuts.

When you say "deep depth" you have to look at what the depth is.  If I am among those trying out for one of the OF positions because I can hit a ball out of Camden Yards (BP speed) then that's not the deep depth you want.  When you're working out Fernando Tatis and Arthur Rhodes you're looking more like you're grasping at straws for bodies rather than having deep depth.

You make the moves you need to make to improve the team.  I give the chances of Brian Roberts coming back AND playing AND staying healthy AND reverting to 2009 form about 0.1%.  Does filling it with the combos named really put us in the best position to win?  No, and neither did it when Andino played there, nor were we filling the SS hole a few years back when we had about 8 guys play there during the year.  That's NOT filling a hole, at least not on a winning team.  Neither is playing guys out of position because you couldn't find anyone else and dealing with tons of errors.

You could always use pitching.  Getting the ace allows you to push your current #1 starter to a #2, the #2 to a #3, etc.  It makes the whole rotation better from top to bottom.  If you get a #4 then you've improved 2 slots.  That's why it frustrates me when this team tries to survive on a whole bunch of guys who would be 3-5 in other rotations.  Stability in a pitching staff is crucial.  For 15-18 years the same 4 guys (it would be 5 now) were ready to take the ball over 90% of the games year in and year out...and every year the Orioles won 90-100+ games.  That was not a coincidence.  Last year the starting staff was band aided together.  Chen and Hammel on a good team are 2nd or 3rd starters.  One year in the 70s I think the Orioles used a total of 5 different starters the entire year.  Most of the time it was 6, maybe 7.  The 2012 version went through 7 in 7 days.  They were lucky last year the starting pitcher bandaids worked all year.

Roles in the bullpen are also crucial, you bring in the best guys to compete and win those spots, and run with them.  The Orioles did this right last year.

Having the same names to pencil in game in and game out by your choice (not just because that's the scrap you had left over) is why you get a winning team.  For years, they could write in Ripken and Murray plus several others.  And before that, Brooks, Powell, and Belanger.  You had a set leadoff hitter, set 3-4-5 guys.  This year?  You can pencil in Jones (all star), Markakis (very good) and Wieters (borderline all star).  Machado has every look of being a very good to all star player.  Everyone else?  Davis at 1B is out of position, Hardy is a health issue, 2B is a dartboard, who's in LF which day, etc.  There's no clear leadoff guy to set the table and there's no clear cleanup guy to build around.  And every year as the Prince Fielders come and go and the Mark Teixeiras come and go, the Orioles don't have one.  But we have enough AAAA players for 3 teams.

This team as constructed can't sit on its laurels from 2012 and expect to repeat it.  It is not soundly built.  It might be a nice looking beach house but might be built on stilts, with a good chance of crashing down.

Having the same names to pencil in game in and game out by your choice (not just because that's the scrap you had left over) is why you get a winning team.  For years, they could write in Ripken and Murray plus several others.  And before that, Brooks, Powell, and Belanger.  You had a set leadoff hitter, set 3-4-5 guys.

That was also way before free agancy.  I would like to to think that all of the above would have stayed an Oriole for life and not tested free agency, like Cal did, but we'll really never know.  You also really only had 3 pitchers year in and year out; Palmer, McNally, and Cuellar.  The #4's were pitcher's like Pat Dobson and Mike Torrez.  Mediocre pitchers before they came to the O's but 20 game winners after a "change of scenery" and working with pitching coach/guru George Bamberger.   

I have to agree with OTM on this debate (wow we both agree with each other in the same week).  Hamilton and Greinke were never coming to the Orioles.  B.J Upton is not what the O's needed.  He's a hellava CF and he steals some bases, but his OBP is very low and his K's are very high.   Plus, how many times in the past few years has Maddon had to talk to him or bench him b/c he wasn't hustling or just playing up to his talent level?  Is that the type of player you want on the team to mentor the Machado's, Schoop's, Bundy's, etc? 

The one thing I disagree with is letting go of Reynolds.  I will admit that he made himself into a very fine 1B and saved quite a few of Machado's throws.  But, everyone seems to think that he was a very important part of the team's success.  If you can remember he only had aabout a 6 week period that he was smokin'.  Through July he only had 8 HRs and 32 RBI while hitting .204 (54/259) and strinking out 96 times in 259 AB's.  Aug and the the 1st 2 weeks of Sept is when he hit 15 HR's and 37 RBI and hit .250 and still struck out 59 times.  He then disappeared the 2nd half of Sept, all of Oct and  in the playoffs.  That 6 week period pretty much carried the O's, but that is only 6 weeks out of 6 months.  I honestly don't think the O's will miss him at all, except for maybe a 6 week period sometime within the season.

I don't believe this team will win 93 games again this year.  I'm predicting 75-85.  But, players like Jones, Wieters, Davis, Hammel, and Hardy now know what if feels like to win.  The "winning" attitude is not just Buck, DD and some over-the-hill veterans brought in to extract one last bit of life from them.  It is now part of the team chemistry.  Role players like Ishikowa (Giants), and former starters like Connor Jackson (D-backs) and some others can now fit right in with that chemistry and attitude because they know what it takes and means to win and that rubs off on other players.                 

Not all players can be "A" or "B" players.  Unless you're the Yankees, or now the Dodgers, most teams have a few A-A+ players, a few B players, and the rest C's with a few D's mixed in.  This is what the O's have.  And who knows, maybe some of the D's will become C's or better yet C's -> B's.  Baseball is funny that way. 

This is not a prolonged argument, debat or whatever you want to call it, that I am going to have. You guys think we are fine with what we have and that someone will emerge to be what this team needs to make the next step an I do not. It is that simpl,e and history is on my side. Last year history was on my side, and we defied the odds. I hope we do again. i simply don't know why we constantly try when it s just not necessary. There was help out there even if you didn't want to buy superstar help. I don't know why anyone wopuld have a problem with picking the what yuo perceive as the weakest spot on the team, whatever that is, and getting a proven commodoty to fill it. It is what you would do if you owned your own business and it is what works in every success model there is. if you believe we have done that with the actions or non actions of the off season, then you should be excited, but I am not going to argue with you about why I am not. it's not pessimistic, in fact i predicted we still play over 500 ball this year. i just think we wasted  year of the total recovery by doing nothing solid and proven. It's that easy.  

I can't believe I'm reading some of this. I don't have a problem debating on whether a Mark Reynolds or a Brad Bergesen could contribute. But I'm hearing a bunch of whining about not improving a 93 win team, when only two players (Reynolds and Saunders, not Andino) who played significant roles are gone. And Saunders may still return.

This is basically the same team that was without Hammel, Markakis, Roberts, Betemit, Reynolds and Reimold for an extended time due to injuries. Its the same team that didn't have a full season of Machado, McLouth and Saunders. Its the same team that had only one 10 game winner. So, while its true that the wins in close and extra inning games were heavily tilted in the Orioles favor, so were the excessive amounts of injuries.

Poor pitching performances (particularly early in the season) from Jake Arrieta, Brian Matusz and Tommy Hunter, coupled with subpar defense (especially early on) from Robert Andino. Mark Reynolds, Wilson Betemit and Jones and Wieters, and underwhelming offensive production from Reynolds, Andino, Hardy, Wieters and Betemit threatened to doom the team out of the gate. The run differential was horribly lopsided against the home team.

But the O's found themselves still in it because they have tremendous talent. They got their act together. Buck found roles where certain players could succeed (Matusz and Hunter in the bullpen, Markakis and McLouth atop the lineup in particular), and then the team got great play from its "deep depth." Guys like Miguel Gonzalez, Chris Tillman, Steve Johnson, Randy Wolf, Ryan Flaherty, Bill Hall, Lew Ford, Steve Pearce, Taylor Teagarden and Jim Thome all contributed at some point.

I won't argue that there are 4 positions that need addressing in the near future (1B, 2B, 3B, LF). The Orioles, however, already have in house candidates for those positions. Chris Davis certainly earned the right to be the starting 1B in 2013 after hitting better than .270 with more than 30 homers and 80 RBI. He's just entering his prime. The 3B position may very well belong to J.J. Hardy when Manny Machado slides over to his natural SS position. The 2B of the future is in the high minor leagues. Jonathan Schoop is the next O's 2B prospect. In LF, there are a ton of prospects ranging from the lower end of Hoes and Avery, to a high end guy like Henry Urrutia. In the mean time, both Reimold and McLouth are in their prime and can hold down the position quite well. And don't forget that Conor Jackson is a healthy former 1st round pick that has a ton of tools and upside, and just entered his prime years.

I'm not sure what it is that the O's could have done other than trade for Butler, Morse, Upton or Kubel (thus giving up Bundy and/or Machado), or signed Greinke, Jackson, Hamilton, Victorino, Upton, Youkilis or Swisher to ridiculous contracts that burden the franchise for years. And with the exception of Billy Butler among the aforementioned names, not one of those guys comes without either injury concerns, work ethic concerns, clubhouse chemistry issues or some physical or mental ailments. They're not good investments and although they may help the team in the short term, they may have devastating long term affects. This team is being built for long term durability.

Signing players like Casey Kotchman, Kelly Johnson, Marco Scutaro and the like would be no more than quick fixes at best. Those player would certainly not be long term answers and may not even represent an upgrade to the team as is. What it would do is impede any progress one of the younger players may make by taking away at bats or innings pitched.

Don't make light of the "deep depth" concept. The Rays didn't have anyone that could replace their star hitter, Evan Longoria when he went down. Eventually, they had to trade for Ryan Roberts. The Yankees, on the other hand, had Eric Chavez to replace A-Rod and a plethora of veterans to play for the injured Brett Gardner and Mark Teixeira (one of which, Chris Dickerson, is now an Orioles player). The Rays faded without their superstar even with their spectacular pitching staff, while the Yankees continued to win despite the crippling losses. The Orioles followed the New York blueprint and won 93 games. Had the Rays had a back-up plan, they may have overtaken both the O's and the Yankees down the stretch when Longoria returned.

So, if DD thinks Mark Hendrickson, Arthur Rhodes or even Boog Powell could be helpful veteran additions, why argue? The O's signed a ton of veterans last year too as part of their depth. Not all of them panned out (see Miguel Tejada). But they were options that were given an opportunity to excel.

Let me go on record and say that I still believe that Kyle Lohse and Michael Bourn would be upgrades and I would be in favor of their signings. However, the cost and years have got to be realistic.

I don't really understand why Machado MUST move over to shortstop. If he can learn 3B, and he's certainly young enough to do so and be good at it for his entire career and the offensive potential he has comes to the surface, why move him? Hardy is a gold glove shortstop, why mess with that just because Machado is a natural SS?

I have read that the O's would be interested in Lohse if it wasn't for his high asking price and we don't want to give up our first round pick. Ultimately, I don't think we get him or Bourn. The first round pick thing is crippling both of their markets.

Debate - to talk about something at length and in detail, especially as part of a formal exchange of opinion.

Is this not a debate?

As much as I love J.J. Hardy and was all for his signing, I don't think he'll be in Baltimore past his contract.  Of course this depends on two things; 1) the development of Jonathan Schoop and 2) the development of Adrian Marin.  Both can play SS, 3B, and 2B.  I Machado does indeed stay at 3B, and I think he should, Schoop can play his natural positon of SS and MArin at 2B.  Or....Machado at SS, Schoop at 3B and Marin at 2B.  Or...Schoop at 2B, Marin at 3B, and Machado at SS.  Lots of possibilities that depend on the development of some young players.  If there are two things that have changed under DD they are the recognition of talent and the development of players.      

I never said it wasn't a debate, Jazz. I said there was a whole lot of whining going on. I'm pretty sure I fully understand the defefinition of a "debate."

However, since you brought it up, how do you debate an issue when someone says that you should pick a hole and fill it, without ever referencing which hole or any hole for that matter? Especially when many of us don't see any holes in the Orioles roster at all. At least none that are definitively defined yet.

Now, if you want to debate that the O's have or don't have holes to fill immediately, that's debatable. Just not pissin' and moanin' about filling hypothetical weaknesses without referencing any. And, it all stems from being upset over the perceived lack of offseason movement on the O's part which is automatically converted into a lack of an upgrading effort. In layman's terms, a crybaby! And let me make it very clear, everyone had a desire to add and upgrade at a reasonable cost. Those who see a need to do something just because they think something needs to be done, and are disappointed and carry on when nothing happens to their liking, that is my definition of a crybaby.

Its not just on these boards. Its on all the Orioles boards. Most fans just don't realize that spontaneous gratification only lasts for a short while. It normally impedes the long term effects that are actually desired.

In essence, it means the O's could have traded Dylan Bundy, Manny Machado and other young arms, overspent on free agent contracts both in term and cash, and could have forfeited their first, second and even third round pick in the 2013 June amateur draft if they chose to. In doing so, the new O's makeup would be dotted with big name players at the cost of team continuity and young talent lost.

If that's what you want, need or are fixated on, fantasy baseball is for you. Just don't join a keeper league.