With the 6th pick?

JYD... Thoughts like this are why I fear we cannot have an honest and fruitful discussion.  For the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to assume you were just passionately arguing and not serious when you suggest the game "hasn't changed" much.

Sigh... SAS, read, think, re-read, then think again... I NEVER SAID the game hasn't changed, I said the QB position hasn't changed all that much, if it has, lemme know how... IMO from 1998, until today, the QB position hasn't changed THAT MUCH!!! Yes the game is more geered towards passing, the rules favor QB's and WR's and allows for more points... but the actual QB position hasn't changed that much, they just throw the ball alot more, because Furor Goddell wants them to!

This is something I've yet to get the Weeden apologists to explain.  They throw out excuse after excuse as to why he was the second-worst performing QB in the NFL last season.  Despite the fact that those comlaints really aren't valid -- what's his ceiling?

I didn't think we were allowed comparing Rookie QB's to their more exp veteran counterparts... now we can? Man... someone make up a comparison rule and stick with it already!!!

What's Weeden's ceiling? I don't know, you don't know, no body knows, until you let the guy play (under a compotent HC) for a season, then maybe you'll know... Did you KNOW after Manning's rookie season that he would go down as one of the all time greats at QB? I highly doubt it! Especially since he was 23rd in the league THAT YEAR!!! Oh wait, can we still use that? Or are we not allowed because it hurts your argument?   



  

Okayyyyyyy....


So anyway....How bout that Dee Milliner with the 6th pick?


seems like EVERY Browns thread always boils down to the QB, and or, our lack there of....It's been like that since I started posting on CBS 6 or 7 years ago.  Only the names have changed.... 

aaaaahhhhh.....The life of a Browns fan.

I NEVER SAID the game hasn't changed, I said the QB position hasn't changed all that much

I didn't think we were allowed comparing Rookie QB's to their more exp veteran counterparts... now we can? Man... someone make up a comparison rule and stick with it already!!!

Oh my gosh... it's like arguing with a child.

FACT: If the game has changed, it logically follows that the players have changed.

FACT: You cannot accurately compare someone to another person 14 years ago in a much different environment.

FACT: You *can* compare someone today with someone else from today.

I don't know, you don't know, no body knows, until you let the guy play (under a compotent HC) for a season, then maybe you'll know

Right.  I don't know.  But I didn't see anything special about him at all.  Way more negatives than his lone positive (strong arm).  That makes me think he probably isn't going to competing for All Pro honors next year.

Did you KNOW after Manning's rookie season that he would go down as one of the all time greats at QB?

Yes.  Manning was the most polished QB prospect since Elway.  Yeah, he had a bad rating (not Weeden bad, obviously, but bad).  He also was #5 in TDs thrown (behind three HOFers), #3 in total yards thrown (behind two HOFers) and set rookie records in yards and attempts.

Not exactly limping into the Pros like Weeden with #29 QB rating, #24 in TDs thrown, #7 in INTs thrown and #19 in yards thrown.

So anyway....How bout that Dee Milliner with the 6th pick?

Dang it, TD!  I was just about to make my case for a quarterback.



No seriously... we need Barkevious Mingo.  He's evidently gotten faster and stronger.  Kind of worried he's going to drop some jaws at the Combine and might be out of reach for us at #6.

The guy I really want is Damontre Moore from Texas A/M.....Strong pass rush AND strong against the run.  But I don't think he'll slip to 6....

Oh my gosh... it's like arguing with a child.

FACT: If the game has changed, it logically follows that the players have changed.

FACT: You cannot accurately compare someone to another person 14 years ago in a much different environment.

FACT: You *can* compare someone today with someone else from today.

Oh my gosh... it's like I'm arguing with a wall!!! I'M NOT COMPARING THE TWO, I'm comparing how Manning did his rookie year vs the other QB's playing that year... Get it? and Manning was the 23rd in QB Rating... 19th in Comp %... 1st in INT's Thrown... and I'm comparing that to OTHER QB's PLAYING in 1998.... therefore, his rookie season, COMPARED TO OTHER QB's IN 1998, was not good.... not good at all.... Read that, let it sink in for a second

No where did I mention Weeden, not once, I'm saying Manning DID NOT have a stellar rookie year!!!!

FACT: You *CAN* compare someone from 1998 to (pay attention this time) to someone else from 1998!!!    

 

So anyway....How bout that Dee Milliner with the 6th pick?

I love Milliner with the sixth pick... Coupling him with Haden would make for a very solid secondary and even help (even if just alittle) disguise our weak pass rush!


  

just a couple things.....first of all;  BPP, It's Norv Turner. (with a  v)  Not Norm, like the guy on Cheers.....

and Gold,  I agree that Weeds doesn't consistently make good decisions.  The final play in Baltimore comes to mind.  When we had a shot in the red zone to win it, and he air mailed 10 yards over everybody, seemed like an example of a"bone headed" play....That, among a few other questionable decisions, is why I didn't jump to his defense .....

He also seemed to be afraid to throwe the ball into the end zone on many drives inside the red zone. He strikes me as one of those guys who only throwsa to WRs who are open. Sometimes you need to throw it in their and let the guy make a play.

That said, this could be due to Shurmur's coaching.

    It just seemed to me like you were insinuating that Cam Newton is dumb, and I don't think that's the case.  I think it's sometimes in our nature to see an obviously superior athelete, and make the assumption that he might not be that bright...That's all

I made the assumption more from hearing the guy talk, and based on his attitude. I guess the me-first attitude doesn't make him dumb, but he doesn't sound all that bright. 

Just my opinion. 

Was actually paying close attention until you listed Luck as a fail. Perhaps you'd like to tell us the difference in the Colts which improved them from 1 win to the playoffs. The guy threw for 4400 yards and 23 TDs AS A ROOKIE. This is a fail in your eyes?

I was speaking of individual stats, not TEAM success... as far as JUST Andrew Luck, he was the 26th best QB in the league, he threw 23 TD's yes, also threw 18 INTS and only posted a a 54.1% comp percentage AND took 41 sacks... that's not great!!! Compare to Weeden 57.4% and 28 sacks.. now, I'm not saying Weeden had a better season, but as far as INDIVIDUAL stats, Luck was Avg... the TEAM made it to the playoffs

Some of what you said proved my point. Think Luck's numbers might have been down because he was running for his life behind a porous line? Or are you suggesting Weeden was sacked less because of his scrambling ability, or his smarts and ability to make quick decisions? Either choice is equally laughable.
 

And perhaps you'll need to brush on your comprehension skills as I said they get thrown into the fire and can succeed. Who said they ALWAYS succeed?

Sorry, must have misunderstood because of this statement YOU MADE:

...seemed QBs all either sat the bench or struggled in the past. Now they can get thrown into the fire and succeed

No one said rookie QBs will be top 10 from the start in QBR. To me, a success as a rookie is showing you belong in the NFL and in time look like you will become a solid (or better than solid) QB. And why no Russell Wilson from this season? Not enough passes, so we can't call him a success?

Yes...read it again....I said he COULD succeed. I didn't say they will all succeed. Big difference, which I hope you can see.


   Maybe you should brush up on YOUR comprehension skills as I clearly stated that I was taking a look at QB's drafted IN THE FIRST or EARLY SECOND ROUND... Wilson was a THIRD ROUND (he also benefitted greatly because of Lynch, one hell of a defense, and a "Fail Mary" play, that without that "win" might not have even made the playoffs... not sure who would've won the tie breaker between them and Minnesota)

I don't have the list in front of me, but I seem to recall you included other 3rd rounders. If so, I wonder why Wilson wasn't mentioned (I'll double check your list). Minnesota made the playoffs, so I'm not sure it would have mattered. either way, even without a playoff appearance, I'd say wilson was a success.

Did Andrew Luck single handily make his TEAM a playoff contender? The numbers would suggest not!  

Ok...so what was another change that accounted for an additional 9 wins? Didn't say he single handedly was the reason (you're getting good at making this stuff up), but I doubt anyone would say he wasn't the main reason...and it's not close.   

Maybe you should brush up on YOUR comprehension skills as I clearly stated that I was taking a look at QB's drafted IN THE FIRST or EARLY SECOND ROUND... Wilson was a THIRD ROUND (he also benefitted greatly because of Lynch, one hell of a defense, and a "Fail Mary" play, that without that "win" might not have even made the playoffs...

My apologies....only 2nd rounders. I guess the question is why we wouldn't want to include a 3rd rounder who succeeded in year 1. Seems you also want to take a little away from wilson because of the quality running game. Can we then give more credit to the rookies who had to deal with a terrible running game (Luck would be one)? 

Empirically, we've established his floor is exceptionally low -- only better than Mark über-bust Sanchez.  Where's his ceiling at? 

I fully expect him to develop and improve in Turner's offense, as you suggest.  But people are simply not being realistic when they think he'll somehow go from worst-to-first.  Weeden is not going to jump to a Top 15 QB by the end of next season. 

The guy is 30 years old.  To keep plugging away with a guy who should already be on his second NFL contract by now and hoping that somehow he can become the next great QB is flat-out crazy.

      I wish I could disagree with this assessment. I don't think there's anyone worth the #6 pick at QB, but I wouldn't be opposed to taking a chance on someone either by picking up a 2nd rounder, or possibly with their 3rd or 4th pick. Not many guys in those rounds pan out at QB, but it's worth a shot if there's a guy they like.

JYD... Thoughts like this are why I fear we cannot have an honest and fruitful discussion.  For the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to assume you were just passionately arguing and not serious when you suggest the game "hasn't changed" much.

Sigh... SAS, read, think, re-read, then think again... I NEVER SAID the game hasn't changed, I said the QB position hasn't changed all that much, if it has, lemme know how... IMO from 1998, until today, the QB position hasn't changed THAT MUCH!!! Yes the game is more geered towards passing, the rules favor QB's and WR's and allows for more points... but the actual QB position hasn't changed that much, they just throw the ball alot more, because Furor Goddell wants them to!

Really JYD? You don't think some of the rules might make the QB's job a bit easier? The D cannot really touch him, WRs cannot be touched, which one would think would help them get open a bit easier. Wouldn't that make it easier to complete passes to them? 

What's Weeden's ceiling? I don't know, you don't know, no body knows, until you let the guy play (under a compotent HC) for a season, then maybe you'll know... Did you KNOW after Manning's rookie season that he would go down as one of the all time greats at QB? I highly doubt it! Especially since he was 23rd in the league THAT YEAR!!! Oh wait, can we still use that? Or are we not allowed because it hurts your argument?

I'll assume you've watched many a game in your time, JYD. Because we don't KNOW what the future holds for Weeden, we cannot say what we think he can become?

And, yes, I did think Manning would become a stud QB. Maybe not at the level he established, but he did strike me as someone who would be a top QB. I just don't get that from Weeden. Do you?   And, please, not the "we don't know" answer. Just tell me what you think from what you've seen. 

So anyway....How bout that Dee Milliner with the 6th pick?

Dang it, TD!  I was just about to make my case for a quarterback.



No seriously... we need Barkevious Mingo.  He's evidently gotten faster and stronger.  Kind of worried he's going to drop some jaws at the Combine and might be out of reach for us at #6.    

This is the life of a Browns' fan, TD. I just have a bad feeling this will be like the 2011 draft when the Browns had their eye on either AJ Green or Patrick Peterson (or Miller, but I think they knew they weren't getting him), and they both went right before it was their turn. 

Wouldn't shock me if the same thing happens with Milliner, Minko and Jarvis Jones this year.

Hate to say it, but this is why, once they are obviously out of it, I have no problem with them losing games. Just think, one extra loss in 2010 and 2011, and they have RG3 throwing passes to AJ Green.   

Gold,  I agree that Cam Newton comes off as a bit selfish with the media, but his teammates say that is not the case. They say he works harder than anybody at honing his craft.    Lets not confuse immaturity with intelligence.  Yes, we've seenthe bad body language a couple times, butI think he just HATES losing....He needs to quit the sulking, I agree, but he is sharp guy.  He's obviously a helluva talent...


I gotta disagree with ya on Cam, Blues.....I'd LOVE to see him in a Browns uni. He's young.  He'll grow up.... He can beat ya so many different ways.  Dude is a big time player IMO.....I'm not sure he's ever been on a football field at any level, where he wasn't the most talanted player.

Ok...so what was another change that accounted for an additional 9 wins? Didn't say he single handedly was the reason (you're getting good at making this stuff up), but I doubt anyone would say he wasn't the main reason...and it's not close.

Maybe the completely re-tooled (especially in the backfield) defense, most notably:
Zibikowski (SS)
Davis (CB)
Vaughan (CB)
Redding (DE)
Freeman (Rookie ILB)

And on offense:
Fleener (Rookie TE)
T.Y. Hilton (Rookie WR)
Avery (WR)    
Dwayne Allen (other Rookie TE)

Pretty sure those guys had something to do with adding 9 wins!    

I don't have the list in front of me, but I seem to recall you included other 3rd rounders. If so, I wonder why Wilson wasn't mentioned (I'll double check your list). Minnesota made the playoffs, so I'm not sure it would have mattered. either way, even without a playoff appearance, I'd say wilson was a success.

Fine, put Wilson in there, but name some other 3rd round Rookie QB's that came in and started their Rookie season between the years of 2008 and 2012, I'll wait... (That's why I didn't include him!)

Minnesota made the playoffs

I meant Chicago, my bad

Some of what you said proved my point. Think Luck's numbers might have been down because he was running for his life behind a porous line? Or are you suggesting Weeden was sacked less because of his scrambling ability, or his smarts and ability to make quick decisions? Either choice is equally laughable.

You don't think it's possible that luck may have made some "Rookie Mistakes" and held the ball too long?

 
      

 

sorry...I meant lets not confuse immaturity with lack of intelligence.

Ok...so what was another change that accounted for an additional 9 wins? Didn't say he single handedly was the reason (you're getting good at making this stuff up), but I doubt anyone would say he wasn't the main reason...and it's not close.

Maybe the completely re-tooled (especially in the backfield) defense, most notably:
Zibikowski (SS)
Davis (CB)
Vaughan (CB)
Redding (DE)
Freeman (Rookie ILB)

And on offense:
Fleener (Rookie TE)
T.Y. Hilton (Rookie WR)
Avery (WR)   
Dwayne Allen (other Rookie TE)

Pretty sure those guys had something to do with adding 9 wins!   

Something? Sure, but if you are trying to say they had more to do with it than the most important position on the field, which experienced a significant upgrade from the previous year, that's absurd. Do you think the WRs would have had the same success with the 2011 QBs they used? Think it was a coincidence Wayne had a bounceback season?

All this with a miserable running game.    

Some of what you said proved my point. Think Luck's numbers might have been down because he was running for his life behind a porous line? Or are you suggesting Weeden was sacked less because of his scrambling ability, or his smarts and ability to make quick decisions? Either choice is equally laughable.

You don't think it's possible that luck may have made some "Rookie Mistakes" and held the ball too long?

Sure I do, but no moreso than Weeden.   The Browns' O-line is far superior to the Colts. Especially when it comes to pass protection.

TD, yea it is Norv Turner not Norm Turner, quess I chauk it up to an old age thing, fat finger thing or just too many trips to Cheers