Thoughts on the D-line

I keep hearing how our d-line sucks. Looking at the stats one would tend to agree. In my opinion one has to look a little futher than the stats. Last year our offense was on the field very little. The defense was playing a game and a half every weekend because the offence could not control the ball and give them any sort of a rest.We all know how this wears on a defense and can even carry onto futher weeks games with lingering injuries, soreness and just being tired. If you look at previous years stats you will find Dorsey and Jackson rated very high against the run. I believe prior to this season threads was declaring Dorsey and Jackson as some of the best run stoppers in the league. I also believe that the reins were on both players wanting them to open up lanes so Hali and Houston could shot the gap and get the sack. It is my opinion that we should keep both players a run an defense that plays to there strengths rather then use them to just open gaps. Take the reains off and let them play football. Yes this year they did under preform but that could be a good thing because now they have no leverage to demand an extremly large contract. I say we keep them both assuming we can get them at a reasonable price. What is your opinion on this?

Yeah, is our Dline very good?  No.  Is it really bad?  Probably not.  Could the D use more help?  Absolutely.  I'm reluctant to go get yet another first round Dline guy.  As far the D in general, I'd rather see them go get another LB and/or CB before they load up on another DL.  Out of 3 first round picks on the DL, Poe did show a little promise so maybe with another year he can be the guy to initiate more push up the middle.

Being on the field as much as they were didn't help so if the O can improve to the point that it can put drives together that last longer than 3 plays, the additional rest may have some positive effects. 

i like how Tyson Jackson has progressed, was he worthy of the 3rd overall pick no, but the Chiefs picked him  and i've seen progress every yr. I hope the chiefs re sign t.jack, the guy far from a bust in my opinion.

Looking at the stats one would tend to agree. In my opinion one has to look a little futher than the stats. Last year our offense was on the field very little. The defense was playing a game and a half every weekend because the offence could not control the ball and give them any sort of a rest.

Clean up in aisle 9.....Route brother....you did not say that.  The Chiefs were 16th in TOP, possessing the ball slightly over 30 minutes a game.  They trailed Houston who was #1 in TOP by 2 minutes 50 s......The Chiefs sucked against the run in 2012...They sucked against the run in 2011...they sucked against the run in 2010 and 2009. The only difference is that in 2010 they played a last place schedule and actually led in games forcing bad teams to throw against them.  From 2010 (4.3 yds per carry) to 2012 (4.5 yds per carry) is not a big statistical drop, so you can only blame 0.2 yds per carry on the fact that the offense was so bad.  No, this team has serious issues on the DL and the ILB.  When you are averaging allowing +130 yds for the past four years on the ground...that is not an indication of something good. 


Also, no pass rush from these guys....none, nada, nothing,...They need a new DL and an ILB to actually be able to play the run.   

I agree with you to a point Budahmon.  I think it is a lot of things, a young D-line, lack of depth and other teams always having the lead.  But IMO we need a big change.  We need to ditch the high old school draft sallaries of Dorsey and Jackson and bring in 4 run stuffing DE's and rotate them in and out.  Guys like Mike DeVito guys in the 2-5 mill range and then go get you a stud MLB with the difference.  And I truely believe part of the problem was the 3-4 we played and all the other wierd subsets we ran.

Go Chiefs!!! 

This is a tricky question because on one hand we see good individual efforts in run defense performance, yet consistantly stinky run defense as a team.  This leads me to believe that (1) for every good run stuff we have a hard time stopping the run once it does break the DL and (2) while ILB is probably the last position of need that I would want to spend a higher pick on, Siler may simply not be as good against the run as some reports advertise.

It would be nice to fix all of the parts that need to be fixed but we can't.  Instead, we need to focus on the parts that are least contributing to winning games.  Right now QB and WR are the two biggest detriments.  WR (even with Bowe) is a bigger need than any defensive position (a 2nd CB would actually be more important than any effort to help the run defense because once we get the offense that puts us in leads during games we will need the defense to be superior against the pass and "bend but don't break" against the run). 

I'm not totally arguing the stats, but I do remember prior to the 2012 season people were posting how good Jackson and Dorsey were against the run. Post were putting both Jackson and Dorsey in the top 5 to 10 d-line against the run and posting stats to back there claims. I don't going researching this stuff. I let the other members that post on this sit do that. I usually take a lot of whtat is said on this site with a grain of salt unless they include information that backs their claims. Last year I believe Jackson was number one or two stopping the run and Dorsey was in the top five and showing stats from other sites backing thei claims. I do however feel that both Dorsey and Jackson have been held back with the defensive scheme the Chiefs have been running. I also believe the lack of sack production is due to a couple things.

One thing reason they lack sack is because there has been no push up the middle, allowing the QB to step up into the pocket. Hopefully another year of experiance with Poe and powe will help this situation.

Second reason, both Jackson and Dorsey were asked to open lanes for Hali, Huston and whomever. There job was not to get the sack. Every team knew this and blocked accordingly. The Chiefs need to mix up the defensive scheme allowing both Dorsey and Jackson to play to there strengths at times. Other times they need to just be let lose and go for the sack.

YES i WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOME SACK PRODUCTION FROM THE D-LINE THIS YEAR. We do need to do whatever is necessary to accomplish this in 2013. I just am not quite ready to give up on the D-line we have. I say we draft heavy on Offense this year QB, O-Line and TE. Give the defense a LB, CB and possibly a Safety, but give the D-line one more year to prove themselves.

D-Line has got to be rebuilt. I'm sorry but Jackson isn't gonna be worth the 14 mil or whatever he is due this year, Poe can stick around for now, Dorsey is gone. I'd love to get lucky and have a d-line like New York's or Detroit's or San Francisco's. Pass rushers/run stuffers studs. We missed on our d-line choices and it sucks, but look at Lions, Suh then Fairley the next year when the Lions already had other good players at the position, its depth. Pioli's definition of depth is ok who can I bring in that is worse than our starters and can play a few snaps here or there. BS, I want players who will challenge and take our starters over, THAT is depth, and if they don't but give them a big push then we are set. Quinn for Cassel? You kidding me? Ropati Pitotiua, Tyson Hartman, Siler list goes on and on. I just want to find a pass rushing DE and one that can both pass rush and run stop a and continously build on that. We have some of the best talent in the NFL but rank DEAD LAST in the depth department everywhere. Needs to be fixed!!!!!

Route they did have a high rating, but that is comparing relative to the type of defense played.  The 3-4 were rated together and 4-3 were rated seperately.   Now...individually they rated out well...number of stops behind the line..etc., but it is a team game and for every run stop where yds were lost....there was a whole lot allowed behind them.  Also, a lot of those yds were right up the middle against overmanned NTs which led to Poe, which led to another year of not stopping the run.  I have to say it.... maybe Romeo was not that good of a DC to begin with, his teams at KC sure gave up a lot of points, lacked pressure, did not stop the run.....and had that bend but don't break philosophy...yet too many times they broke.  There is talent on this defense...it just is not on the DL and Siler does not cut it at ILB.  As I have stated before..he could not beat out Belcher who wasn't very good either.

TJ is owed way to much so he has to go or at least signficantly restructure is contract.  Dorsey is aight but I won't be upset if he leaves.  Instead of drafting a dlineman, I'd rather see them go after a FA or two to improve this particular problem.

Well they are sticking with the 34 so they should reshape it. Poe looks like a player to me whether is one of the starting 3 or a rotational guy I dont know but I thought he played the nose pretty well for a rookie on a pretty bad defense. dorsey sucks we all know that though i suspect he will ressurect his career elsewhere in the 43 (not Denver please). Tyson Jackson well Im not too impressed with the guy but he can clog up the lane on occasion. Seems like his contract is bigger than his play though. They can fill out this line with late round picks and a couple of free agents.

Now Star is there for the picking and is probably worth the #1 pick but I cannot remember the last time a NT went 1st overall (Dan Wilkinson?) but he is there. I prefer Joekel or Jarvis as the pick if they are certain that Geno Smith is not the guy. A franchise LT or a premiere pass rusher is worthy of the #1 pick in my opinion. I really am excited about Jarvis that is a guy that could seriously improve our defense.

You guys shock me, all of you. You guys know the Chiefs
Yet, you talk this crap, how do you think Derrick Johnson, Hali, and Houston had such good years?????
Read up on how the 3-4 for works, before you start comparing our DLine stats to that of a 4-3.

This irks me, like i said in another post, because the media says the same crap.
You don't like who they have, fine, but NO ONE will do better stats wise in this 3-4, sorry, you will all be disappointed as long as the Chiefs are in a 3-4.

Can someone who coaches pop warner football come in here and explain to these guys how this defense works.


You don't really need the coach, just think for a minute, if the DLINE sucked, Hali, Johnson, and Houston would not be stars, they would suck, why? because they would be getting blocked out of the play, but it works the way it is, it is not the Chiefs problem. Chiefs problems on defense are two fold, they are on the field to much, and they need a CB, Berry got it together later in the year, and the safeties should be fine. Even in some games, when the defense was on the field all day, they still did a pretty good job. If the Chiefs ever can put like 6 or 7 drives together in a game, don't even have to score on all of them, just stay on the field, defense could kick butt, and also play more aggressive if they have the lead LOL having the lead, imagine that, what an idea that would be.

Chiefs problems are more about coaching than anything else, the Chiefs have a guy like Baldwin doing nothing, a qb doing nothing, and oline that fell apart. The bs that came out the RT mouth shows, to me, what happened in the locker room, Romeo lost control of the team, or he never had it. Those players did what they want when they want, and mistakes were not getting fixed. A bunch of underachievers is what they were, Romeo and Cassel get the blame from me, both have seen what it is suppose to be like, they ignore what works. You would never see players talking that smack from the Patriots locker room, that is because players played, coaches coached, and media people did the media stuff. The whole mess probably drove Pioli crazy, but he was not the coach, and he knew what would happen, and it did happen. No team in the NFL is as bad player for player as the Chiefs seemed, it just does not happen in the NFL, they are all college all stars, they are all great in the scope of things, it is the coaching, not the players. I always believed that.         

Mainer, You have to remember alot of people think Dorsey and Jackson are supposed to be 3-4 DE's that play like J.J. Watt and thats just silly. He is a freak and one of my favorite players to watch but come on it isn't realistic to think of Jackson, and Dorsey that way. 



GO Chiefs!




CNS 

Mainer, You have to remember alot of people think Dorsey and Jackson are supposed to be 3-4 DE's that play like J.J. Watt and thats just silly

I'd take Dorsey and Jackson playing at half the level of Watt...that would be a huge improvement. Dorsey and TJ's biggest problem is they were top 5 picks that didn't belong anywhere near the top 5.  When you are drafted that high, you get top 5 expectations which is very unrealistic for them. 

I agree with you Taxmariner, that is why I put this post up. Although Jackson and Dorsey are not in any means Wyatt. They have been doing there jobs which is provide gaps so the LB's and anyone we decide to blitz can make the stop. If I could go back in time and repick players instead of Dorsey and Jackson sure I would. In reality if they were not on the field 3/4 of the game and rested the defense as a whole would be better. If they Chiefs were not trailing so much teams would not be running the ball as much. There are a lot of if's with our defense. CB is the defenses biggest need. I also believe if we did switch to a 4-3 defense both Jackson and Dorsey could very well turn out to be top D-lineman because the reins would be let loose a little.

GO Chiefs !!!!!!!

Teams with good defenses dont finish 2-14, Houston's stats are blown up because Hali gets double teamed. Houston may not be that good, his tackles for a loss (that were not sacks) are virtually non-existent. He sure as hell is not Navarro Bowman. When your team is 2-14 you suck at all aspects of the game and nobody should be secure in their job.

Mainer...name another 3-4 Defense that has allowed +135 yds per game on the ground for the past 4 years.  Name another defense in the NFL that has allowed that much per game over the last 4 years.  You can't!!!!! 

The Defense sucked.....

…let’s put this puppy to bed.  They were horrible.  They allowed 4.5 yds per carry, now some seem to think that this was due to the offensive performance….yet for the past 4 years they have allowed +135 yds on the ground per game.   Their performance in 2010 was 4.3 yds per carry….2011 4.5 yds per carry …2012 4.5 yds per carry.  One of these days some people will look at that and think shit****e…these guys are terrible with a run defense and they are playing a 3-4…supposedly a defense that is good against the run.  What does it matter though….they have a hard time defending passes to RBs and TEs also..but hey they are a good defense…and a rookie QB is all it will take to turn this team around and make them great.

I keep trying to point  out to my fellow Chiefs fans that this is a 2-14 team.  I really don’t care how often the offense turned it over…..it wasn’t like they lost all those close games due to TOs.  I mean they lost 9 games by greater than 2 TDs and 12 counting the preseason….but hey they are a great defense. They lost all those games due to the fact that the defense sucks.

Let me count the ways…no run defense..I do believe they are 32nd in tackling…20th in yardage…27th in rushing..25th in points allowed…26th in allowing receiving TDs..30th in yds per pass attempt..29th in sacks…

Yea….all it will take to turn this D around is a rookie QB.

.

Yea….all it will take to turn this D around is a rookie QB.

Lol especially a rookie QB who projects out to be David Garrard. I am with you Budahmon this team stinks on both sides of the ball and should stop worrying about positions of need and just start taking the best player available. Thats how good organizations draft they draft the best player available not the best player at a position of need.

Face it Chief fans Dorsey is gone and Jacksons cap number for his production sucks major ass he will be cut within the next two weeks if not before friday. How anybody can defend keeping either of these guys is beyond me Jackson averages 2 tackles a game... TWO tackles a game! My grandma can play better than that. Hell I would venture that Jamarcus Russel would be a better DE than Tyson Jackson or Glenn Dorsey (as long as he gets his drank on).

BTW nobody has said ever on these boards that we expect JJ Watt numbers from our 34 lineman. Piotuatua and Shawn Smith have produced much more consistently playing those positions in limited action than either Dorsey or Jackson have their entire careers! Give me a freaking break Chiefs fans are way smarter than that it is time to move on. 

Ganja, 
 

Jackson's job isnt to get tackles thats the problem with the fans on here. If you believe Jackson's job is to be on the top of the stat sheet then you dont know how a 3-4 defense works. I am not saying he is worth the money he is making but he did his job. I also disagree with the idea that this defense sucks. They were on the field this season more then any other defense in football! 3 n outs contribute to that. I don't think a rookie QB will fix this we obviously are very unfortunate to be so bad during a season, when we knew there wasn't going to be a great QB coming out. It put us in a tight spot. 


We need to draft Barkley if we sign Albert back, and let Barkley throw the ball up to Jon Baldwin. He never gets passes to his strength. He is a deep ball reciever and he never gets that oppurtunity because Cassel never looks anywhere but Bowe, and Brady Quinn doesnt have a great arm at all and checks it down every time. The problems last year were QB play, Brian Daboll, Romeo Crenell, and only one reliable ILB. Everything else is will do enough to win the games.


Go Chiefs!




CNS 

chiefnuggetsox,

No offense intended but thinking we are one QB, a couple of coaches, and an inside linebacker away from being 'good'...that's what got Scott Pioli fired.

Exhibit A; The Passing Game: Funny you should bring up Baldwin because where you see a guy who is not having his strengths played too I...I see a guy who cannot separate from the defender leaving the jump ball his only option (well see 3rd year reciever needs to get 800 yards at least to NOT be considered a bust).

Exhibit B;

'If you believe Jackson's job is to be on the top of the stat sheet then you dont know how a 3-4 defense works.'

I thought I made it very clear that nobody who posts on these boards expects JJ Watt numbers out of our 34 lineman. I also very clearly stated that Pituatua (however its spelled) and Shawn Smith have played much better than Dorsey or Jackson?!?!? Dont really get that statement im tempted to 'reading comprehension much?' Richard Seymour made a career out of posting numbers in the 34 so did a guy named Neil Smith.