NCAA Investigations

 The NCAA image is not tarnished...it has been destroyed. And you are the only one defending them.


You are wrong here.  With regards to tOSU situation I stated early on the kids should not have been allowed to play in the bowl game.  With PSU, those in charge at PSU gave the report to the NCAA as fact.  I do not think the NCAA had any obligation to do more investigation.  With USC, I have said those involved need to lose thieir jobs and possibly licenst.  As far as Miami, from what we know this was an isolated incident in this invesitation that those in charge did not know happened and when they did find out went public.  So yeah all in all the NCAA is not perfect but other than what could come out in the USC case they have not been horrible, not perfect either.


 I fixed your statement for you. The NCAA is not innocent. Please stop making them out to be. 


Once again all we know is this happened once.  If there is more then I could change my opinion.  But right now one who went too far should lose a job and law license. 

 Nonetheless it does not have anything to do with anything. Breaking the law is still breaking the law. Joe did not break those laws but yet you still hold criticism toward him. At the same time you boost the good of the NCAA even when they themselves broke laws. Which laws are ok to be broken?


The answer none which is why I have said some should lose their jobs.  However you are right breaking the law is still breaking the law.  Let me ask this, will you treat two people the same if one is found guilty of insider trading and the other is found guilty of raping and murdering children?  I am guessing no, so yes both broke the law but sometimes breaking one law is a little different than breaking others.   As far as Joe I have said from the info it is possible he did not break any laws but as a leader on that campus he should have made sure somebody found that kid in 2002 and at least asked his side of the story.  That is what any person should do, espeically a leader. 

I think I already have.


You have pointed out that I think breaking some laws is more serious that breaking others, you are correct.  See above.   

I never said they were. However, in a way in college sports it actually is. It is the officiating deity between right and wrong is it not?


You ask if I am for the law, sure am but once again breaking some laws is different than breaking others to me and I react differently.   The NCAA is the deity and is run by the member schools.  The board is made up of memeber schools and rules are determined by member schools. 


Let me just restate that if they break laws they should be punished whether it be the NCAA or JoePa or anybody else.  But I see some things in gray not just black and white.  They should all be punished just like tOSU should have been punished but getting tats is not so serious to me.  It requires punishment but still not so serious.       

  
    

You ask if I am for the law, sure am but once again breaking some laws is different than breaking others to me and I react differently.

Yes, there is a difference, I agree. At USC, tOSU and Miami, NCAA rules were broken, there was nothing criminal. What the NCAA did, may well be criminal.

Interesting too, that you want all of PSU punished for 4 people breaking the law, but when the NCAA breaks the law, punishing only those that broke the law is acceptable.

Interesting too, that you want all of PSU punished for 4 people breaking the law, but when the NCAA breaks the law, punishing only those that broke the law is acceptable.

Funny I was thinking of typing something very similar.

Interesting too, that you want all of PSU punished for 4 people breaking the law, but when the NCAA breaks the law, punishing only those that broke the law is acceptable.


Those that broke the law should be punished by the courts.  Those schools that brake NCAA rules, and yes they did, should be punished by the NCAA.   

Like I said you have nothing.  Just hot air. 

So, why do you assume that other NCAA cases should not be re-looked at unless you're afraid of all the nonsense you've posted about PSU?

So, why do you assume that other NCAA cases should not be re-looked at unless you're afraid of all the nonsense you've posted about PSU?


I am not assuming anything I am giving an opinion.  My opinion with tOSU is there was evidence and with the evidence found they deserved what they got.  With PSU, they gave the report to the NCAA as fact.  Some say they were basically forced but that is a different arguement. The facts are that PSU gave the report to the NCAA and said it was all true, so not need there.  

With Miami, there has been a statement that the evidence from the scandal was a very little part of the total evidence against Miami.


Now with USC there is eveidence that there was some wrong there and I have said they have a legit arguement if all I have heard is true.       

Those that broke the law should be punished by the courts.

Which is exactly what is happening at PSU.

Those schools that brake NCAA rules, and yes they did, should be punished by the NCAA.

Which is exactly the NCAA should have taken the same approach that they did with the Baylor basketball murder and left the lawbreakers to be dealt with by the courts and deal with NCAA violations only. Problem was, they knew that they were extremely unlikely to find NCAA violations at PSU.

 

My opinion with tOSU is there was evidence and with the evidence found they deserved what they got.

I agree and you have never waivered in stating that tOSU should have been punished and I believe that you have also stated that the players involved should not have been allowed to play in the bowl game. However, and this speaks to how the NCAA handles sanctions, they did allow those players to play in the game and then turned around and vacated the win. This is part of what I was referring to in an earlier post when I said people want fairness and openness in sanctions as well as investigations and hearings.

With PSU, they gave the report to the NCAA as fact.  Some say they were basically forced but that is a different arguement. The facts are that PSU gave the report to the NCAA and said it was all true, so not need there.

That report addressed crimes committed, not NCAA violations. The crimes are being handled in the courts. If the NCAA felt they needed to get involved, they should have investigated and looked for NCAA violations just like they did to Baylor.

With Miami, there has been a statement that the evidence from the scandal was a very little part of the total evidence against Miami.

Then theyu should handle as it would be handled in a court of law. Throw out the tainted evidence and then proceed with what they have left.

Now with USC there is eveidence that there was some wrong there and I have said they have a legit arguement if all I have heard is true.

While I think that USC should drag the NCAA into court and sue, I don't think we will. USC has publically stated that we will not sue and even if the legal team decided to move forward, the best we could hope for would be having next seasons schollie reductions lifted (which is the last season of them anyway). Given how slowly the courts tend to move, I'm not sure that the case would be decided in time even for that.

Now correct me if I am wrong but this is what Wiki says about the Baylor issue.


Bliss paying for tuition for two players, Dennehy and Herring<sup id="cite_ref-SI_4-4" class="reference">[[4]]</sup> and attempting to conceal it.


Now PSU got punished not for what JS did but for the concealing of it for all that time.  Now I realize one was concealing NCAA violations and the others concealing crimes but I think it is similiar at least.  The leaders at the university concealed a crime to protect the university.  To me that is enough to punish. 

Bliss paying for tuition for two players and attempting to conceal it.

Paying the tuition was an NCAA violation, therefore it was an NCAA violation that he was covering up. So the NCAA punished them for the NCAA violation and the covering up of the NCAA violation. What they did not do, was address the murder and the cover up of that.

Now I realize one was concealing NCAA violations and the others concealing crimes but I think it is similiar at least.  The leaders at the university concealed a crime to protect the university.  To me that is enough to punish.

Whether it was covered up to protect the reputation of the university or not, it was not the covering up of an NCAA violation. The person who committed the crimes that were being covered up is in jail and will die there (hopefully slowly and painfully), those who covered up the crime are also going to trial and will likely be punished because they covered up a crime (which itself, is a crime).

If an NCAA violation was discovered, even inadvertently via the Freeh report, then by all means, punish them for that. But leave the crimes to the criminal justice system like they did with Baylor.

So, why do you assume that other NCAA cases should not be re-looked at unless you're afraid of all the nonsense you've posted about PSU?

I am not assuming anything I am giving an opinion.  My opinion with tOSU is there was evidence and with the evidence found they deserved what they got.  With PSU, they gave the report to the NCAA as fact.  Some say they were basically forced but that is a different arguement. The facts are that PSU gave the report to the NCAA and said it was all true, so not need there.

And you are entitled to your opinion but that is all that it is.  Here is an interesting point--and mind you I am not defending the PSU scandal per se.  The NCAA did no investigating on its  wn.  They took the PSU report as fact and took it from there.  And you wonder why (along with the issue of Miami) that PSU is now taking matters into its own hands? 

Do you really believe PSU is doing what they are for any other reason?


   

What they did not do, was address the murder and the cover up of that.


I do not see where anyone at Baylor tried to cover up the murder.  


Here is a NCAA rule that as being a member PSU agreed to:

19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct.

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young
people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen.

And you are entitled to your opinion but that is all that it is

Looks like CBS cut off the end of my post.


Yes it was my opinion and that is all it is just like yours or anyone elses.   

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young
people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen.

The way that I read the rule, it speaks about intercollegiate athletics. What happened at PSU had no more to do with intercollegiate athletics than it would have had to do with math if it had been a math professor doing this in a university classroom. PSU's football program and facilities were used by an former coach to commit a crime. People who were employed by PSU covered it up. Those people are or will be punished via the legal system because the committed a crime.

If it had been a math teacher doing this in a classroom, would the NCAA sanction the math department? Or would they leave it to the legal system to punish the criminals?

I do not see where anyone at Baylor tried to cover up the murder.

Yeah, I went back snf re-read a couple and it looks like I mixed it up a little (been awhile since I read those and was going off memory). Either way, the NCAA didn't and never had, until PSU, punished for criminal activity.

Looks like CBS cut off the end of my post

It happens. LOL!!

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen.

ellupo--Both the Freeh report and the NCAA got cought up with this culture of deception.  So much so that the NCAA didn't even bother to actully do an investigation on its own.  Once everyone has gone on trial (for the coverup if you will), I truly believe that said "culture" will be proven to be only a couple of individuals.  If that's the case, and yes it is only my opinion, then PSU has every right to challenge the NCAA decision.  Which has been my contention all along--them USC OSU all three should review what the NCAA did and whether or not it was honest/fair.
  

My opinion with tOSU is there was evidence and with the evidence found they deserved what they got.

I agree and you have never waivered in stating that tOSU should have been punished and I believe that you have also stated that the players involved should not have been allowed to play in the bowl game. However, and this speaks to how the NCAA handles sanctions, they did allow those players to play in the game and then turned around and vacated the win. This is part of what I was referring to in an earlier post when I said people want fairness and openness in sanctions as well as investigations and hearings.

That was my only issue, Trojan. The NCAA basically did exactly what they punished Tressel for doing by letting those kids play in the bowl game.   Only difference is Tressel did it to protect the kids and possibly give himself a better chance to win, while the NCAA did what they did because of money.

dtgold, 

The actual nail that got us was the extra pay Deveir and Boom got on summer jobs.. 

However, and this speaks to how the NCAA handles sanctions, they did allow those players to play in the game and then turned around and vacated the win. This is part of what I was referring to in an earlier post when I said people want fairness and openness in sanctions as well as investigations and hearings.


The NCAA did not vacate the win.  tOSU vacated the win but on the NCAA website it is still a win for tOSU, not vacated.    

dtgold,

The actual nail that got us was the extra pay Deveir and Boom got on summer jobs..

Fair enough. I guess it doesn't matter much as it's over and they can be relevant again next year.