WITNESS

"No, there's a big difference between Jordan (or Kove) and Lebron prior to winning a championship. Jordan didn't dissapear. He didn't defer. He didn't quit. Jordan was a stone cold assassin and Kobe has always had that as well. "

There is a difference but it is only in defining WHAT their weakness was. James tried too hard to include everyone and shrank form the moment a few times. Jordan tried to hard to do it all himself and overattacked the moment a few times. They are different, but they have the same results. They were seen as character flaws that people said those players would have a hard time overcoming. Both were able to do it and win. We'll see if James is able to continue.

"And Jordan was the greatest finals player ever, bar none."

Agreed, though I still contend that no decade of titles was ever played against weaker competition.

lol AZraider, thats enough crap from you. its just a waste of ur time trying to bring the past to compare what is NOW. lebron is the only player who has shot above 60% in the last 6 games. honor it. accept it. and u will have a happier life. if u want to reminisce, play bingo with senile chiefs and simple jefe, maybe u can talk about the fakers past championships and argue about whether those minneapolis faker championships count.

Cmon Twocoach you mean the years where Jordan had to play against Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajawon, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson just to name a few.  Those guys would demolish the so called talent today in the NBA. I know you love Lebron and everything but get his **** off of your mind so you can think clearly.

the Dream i would argue is one of the best big men off all time who happened to play on a not-so-deep- Rockets team.

if you swapped the dream wiht kareem id argue the dream would be considered one the all time greats (like best ever) i realize slightly different era's

though hakeem did go toe to toe with Bird and Magic

"Cmon Twocoach you mean the years where Jordan had to play against Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajawon, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson just to name a few.  Those guys would demolish the so called talent today in the NBA. I know you love Lebron and everything but get his **** off of your mind so you can think clearly. "

Do some research clown. I seem to be the only one thinking clearly. I am keeping my personal opinions of Jordan (who is one of my favorite players of all time) out of the conversation and being truthful about the situations surrounding ALL of the relevant information. Most people just assume that Jordan was simply awesome and there was nothing else to it. I am merely pointing out other information that is relevant.

The NBA was in a massive state of transition when the Bulls hit their stride with expansion and the changing of the guard between eras. Bird and Johnson were on the way out. Robinson's first year was in 1990 and he was drafted by a terrible Spurs team. That Utah team with Stockton and Malone was the ONLY team in the NBA that had two other Hall of Famers on it besides Jordan and Pippen in Chicago. Another exception was Detroit, who had Dumars and Thomas and they were able to keep Jordan out of the Finals for YEARS. Ewing had NOTHING. Barkley had NOTHING. Olajuwan did not much in the NBA until Jordan LEFT to "play baseball" and Houston signed Hall of Famer Clyde Drexler. There were a lot of teams with one really good player on it.  

Larry Bird = a shell of himself his last two years in the league due to back injuries, which were the 90-91 and 91-92 seasons, ironically the first two years of the Bulls title runs.

Magic Johnson = last season in the NBA was the 1990-91 season, when he abruptly retired due to being HIV positive. Ironically, the beginning of the Bulls title run.
 
And yes, "just to name a few" because the percentage of players that went on to the hall of fame at that time was lower than at any time in NBA history due to the large increase in putrid teams thanks to the recent NBA expansion at that time.

The NBA was in a massive state of transition when the Bulls hit their stride with expansion and the changing of the guard between eras. Bird and Johnson were on the way out. Robinson's first year was in 1990 and he was drafted by a terrible Spurs team. That Utah team with Stockton and Malone was the ONLY team in the NBA that had two other Hall of Famers on it besides Jordan and Pippen in Chicago. Another exception was Detroit, who had Dumars and Thomas and they were able to keep Jordan out of the Finals for YEARS. Ewing had NOTHING. Barkley had NOTHING. Olajuwan did not much in the NBA until Jordan LEFT to "play baseball" and Houston signed Hall of Famer Clyde Drexler. There were a lot of teams with one really good player on it.   

Look here geek the guys I listed were head and shoulders better than most of the watered down punks you have today. I can't believe I also forgot about Shaq and Penny.  You know just some more ballers that played in that era.  Can you name one Center today who could compete against those guys?  Hell no!  The big men back then would man handle the chumps out there today.  Dwight Howard is supposingly the best right now and he sucks.  These so called athletes that you think are great today couldn't hold any of these guys jock straps.  They have no guts and they're all about getting paid.  They're S-O-F-T SOFT!!  The reason there wasn't any super teams back then is because players actually wanted to compete against the best not join up with them.  So yes the competition was greater in Jordans era cause each team had their superstar instead of like todays punks who rather team up cause they don't know anything about HARD work.  Lebron is great and he could go down as one of the top ten to play the game but in NO WAY is he going up against stronger competition cause by god he's playing with them.  That same statement goes for Kobe as well.  The competition today couldn't hang with the teams from the 90's.  FACT! 

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"Look here geek the guys I listed were head and shoulders better than most of the watered down punks you have today. "

Geek? Oh nice. Let's resport to name calling to try to bully your opinion down my throat. Cute.

Why would you compare the best players of an era to the watered down punks? There are a load of excellent players playing today that will be in the Hall o fFamer; it's just hard to see that now as they are still in the primes of their careers and too early to speculate.

"Can you name one Center today who could compete against those guys?  Hell no!  The big men back then would man handle the chumps out there today.  Dwight Howard is supposingly the best right now and he sucks."

I agree that the true 5 center of before is a weak position now in the NBA but every other position in the NBA right now is flousihing with talent. There are a lot of really great players out there right now.

"The reason there wasn't any super teams back then is because players actually wanted to compete against the best not join up with them. "

Weren't any super teams? Jordan's Bulls, Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics are the same as James' Heat, Kobe's Lakers and Pierce's Celtics. They were all just formed in different manners as the business of the NBA is completely different now than it was then.

"So yes the competition was greater in Jordans era cause each team had their superstar instead of like todays punks who rather team up cause they don't know anything about HARD work. "

Did you walk uphill both directions in a foot of snow with no shoes when you were a kid? Just stop. If you don't think LeBron James carrying that Cavs team rosetr of crap to the NBA Finals was hard work then you need to excuse yourself from this conversation. Your next line will "these young whippersnappers" or something equally ridiculous.

"The competition today couldn't hang with the teams from the 90's.  FACT!  "

that would be called OPINION, not FACT. There are so many more teams with multiple all stars on them now than there ever were back in the 90s. The road to the NBA Finals is much tougher now than it used to be.

Weren't any super teams? Jordan's Bulls, Magic's Lakers and Bird's Celtics are the same as James' Heat, Kobe's Lakers and Pierce's Celtics.

No, that's just wrong. You're comparing teams that have one or two championships to teams that had 3-6 championships and great regular seasons. Like 67+ wins.

"No, that's just wrong. You're comparing teams that have one or two championships to teams that had 3-6 championships and great regular seasons. Like 67+ wins."

Thank you for making my POINT. The guy was saying that there weren't any super teams back then:

His statement: "The reason there wasn't any super teams back then is because players actually wanted to compete against the best not join up with them. "

As you pointed out, he is completely wrong. There WERE super teams back then, it's just that they were constructed differently because the business of the NBA was different back then.

"And yes, "just to name a few" because the percentage of players that went on to the hall of fame at that time was lower than at any time in NBA history due to the large increase in putrid teams thanks to the recent NBA expansion at that time. "

Like I said: [http://www.basketball-reference.com
/blog/?p=8574]

Expansion watered down the league. And the only guy left to go in the HOF from that era is Gary Payton, who will go in this year.

twocoach you call me a clown and I call you a geek so what.  Toughen up kid.  Now you say there were super teams. But I thought you said the competition was weak in Jordans era.  Which one is it man?  In one post you say Robinsons team sucks but they actually had a good year when he came in as a rookie.  You stated Hakeem was nothing until Jordan retired then you said Ewing and Barkley were nothing?  Wow!  Didn't Ewing have John Starks, Charles Oakley just to name a few.  Barkley happened to be on a Suns team which had K.J. and Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle.  So just stop with the nonsense that Jordan only dominated cause there was lack of competition.  Also what Lebron did in Cleveland was not a big deal considering the competition in the East is weak.  The fact his team had the best record in back to back years just shows you how weak that division was.  Then we all saw what happened to the Cavs in the finals when he faced real competition.  Had he been in the West he wouldn't have sniffed the finals maybe not even past the first round.  Basically what Jordan did in his time reflected a man who was the BEST to ever play the game and he did it against the BEST competition.  You have your own opinions and I have mine.  Jordan is legendary, Lebron is still working on that.

I agree with twocoach. 

This devolved into Lebron vs Jordan. Early on, there was a claim that Lebron is the most skilled player to EVER enter the NBA. I think Oscar Robertson falls into the same category. So does Magic (his rookie season in the finals playing center for an injured Kareem illustrates that point). I also think that although Lebron is better all-around than Wilt was, Wilt would have better numbers if he played in this era and was beneficiary of the training, diet, etc. IOW, Wilt would be more dominant and would likely win the MVP if he had any good teammates.

Lebron is highly over-rated because so many of the really greatest players of all time have come and gone and been forgotten about. It's difficult to remember all of the little details that made Michael Jordan so great and that has been more then a decade already.  The younger crowd in here are awed at what they think is greatness when really it's nothing new.  It's good basketball, but only with the passage of time and performance above all others will Lebron prove that he is as great as the pedastal that these fans have put him on and quite honestly every superstar tends to be over-rated some and over-paid

Overrated? Wher do you rank him compared to what you feel is the public's ranking of him?

lol TLFool, you are certainly depressed. learn to live with the present and stop romanticising about the past. none of these players are playing anymore. jordan is a secret lebron fan. he even studied lebron enough to say he can guard lebron by forcing him to go left. jordan unwittingly reveals his respect for lebron's game.

you seriously need to lighten up, TLFool. just because your fakers are cellar doesn't mean you can minimize all the players today. your dumb "it takes time to prove oneself" is stupid because it is a lazy and easy way to escape an argument. take your Prozac and enjoy the games.

In reference to the current page I think the NBA is massively different than it was in the 90s and that's another debate to be had.  Lebron is dominating the current NBA.  He needs to win another title to solidify that, but he's on a historic run.  (I hate lebron so this is hard for me to say)

As for Jordan I agree he didn't have an equal like bird and Magic did.  His equal would have been len bias, but he passed away and the Celtics fell apart.  It's speculation, but bias was a talent on par with the greats.  

Of course if Lebron had played in the 80s he just would have tried to get traded to the Lakers or the celtics so he could bum a championship off of the guys who already had one.  My problem with lebron remains that I still think he's just a fantastic regular season player and has yet to prove he's clutch when it counts.  There have been plenty of awsome players who put up huge numbers, but never won the title and we don't talk about them being the greatest ever.   

I don't think it's a stretch to say LeBron James is overrated.  The top stars in the major sports tend to get that way as part of the marketing of their sports.  Twenty-five years from now, when a different generation has grown up without having watched Lebron James play, he might not even be considered as good as, say, Charles Barkley.  [Look around at the Jordan threads and you can see how this could happen.]  Until his decline with age and probably weight as well, Barkley had much better rebounding numbers and better FG% numbers than Lebron.  He didn't shoot as much, because, back then, without the exception of that one guy [we all know that guy], players just didn't do that.  It wasn't part of the mentality back then.

But let's get to examining Lebron in more detail.  First, Lebron James is a 250 pound forward.  How has he not been getting 9 or 10 rebounds per game throughout his career in today's tiny centerless league?  He finally averages 8 rebounds a game, and people are amazed.  He is a 250 pound forward, people, in a smaller league.  With a little bit of effort, 8 rebounds should have been routine a long time ago.

There is a stat a guy at ESPN came up with called PER.  A lot of you know about this stat.  One of the problems with it is that it looks at stats by a per-minute basis.  Per-minute is not the end-all be-all, because, if a guy is not a focal point of the team, he never touches the ball, and, if he never touches the ball, he's out there running up minutes but doesn't get much opportunity to gain stats in that time.  That's not to say per-minute isn't useful, but it should be considered next to [drum roll]: per-touch efficiency.  With that, I present to you the following information:

Chris Bosh - 50 touches per game - 17.3 points and 1.5 assists per game. (0.346 points and 0.03 assists per touch)

Dwayne Wade - 59 touches per game - 20.9 points and 4.8 assists per game. (0.354 points and 0.08 assists per touch)

Lebron James - 84.6 touches per game - 27.2 points and 7 assists per game. (0.321 points and 0.08 assists per touch)

^^ I see what you are getting at, but that is a horrible misrepresentation of facts. Of course Bosh and wade have more points per touch.... they shoot more shots per touch as well. So what is your point? There are a lot of possession where LeBron dribbles it up the court before passing to someone else... that doesn't make him any less efficient because he touched it but wasn't involved in most of the play...


Steve Novak probably has a huge point per touch rating.... this is a very poor way of evaluating player efficiency. And as to the less than 9 or 10 rebounds comment? Probably because LeBron spends most of his time on the perimeter as a ball handler not in the paint. Look at his rebounding numbers last year in the last few series of the playoffs whent he played down low a lot more.