The Ditch

MEETINGS HAVE BROKEN OFF!!

It'll be very interesting to see what happens over the next 24 hours.  The NHLPA wants the mediators back, the NHL as far as I can see or read hasn't agreed to this yet. 

I think the money issues are for the most part gone, looks like they're on the same page financially.  The big issue seems to be the NHL being firm on the 5 year max deals and no more then a 5 percent year to year on player salaries.  This of course almost assures that teams can't get around the hard cap which doesn't sit well with the union. 

I think the extra 100 million in make whole money along with the NHL agreeing no changes be made to free agency and arbitration was a little surprising to most people.    One of the reporters on twitter says they are close but the deal is hanging by a thread.

Donald Fehr just can't shake hands.  He is becoming the devil in this.  Why won't he take the last offer to a player vote?

Friggin' Toews and Miller on the Players side have me spewing as does Jacobs on the Owners side.

The owners have done some major bargaining, the players look like kids around a pinata.

Get it done.     

How do you consider what the owner have done as major bargaining? What have they given up from the last CBA? Nothing that I can think of. So far the only side that has giving up anything from the last CBA is the NHLPA.

That is what Toews and Miller are spewing.  One with concussion issues from hitting a concrete pillar, the other getting hit in the head with too many pucks.

You can say you love the players and think they should get the world, but fiscally the league will not stay solvent with idiot front-loaded and rear-ended long term contracts.  It seems the Fehr is working for player agents more than the players and the league. 

How do you consider what the owner have done as major bargaining? What have they given up from the last CBA? Nothing that I can think of. So far the only side that has giving up anything from the last CBA is the NHLPA.

If you were an owner and the last contract you signed didn't work out so well for you would you give up anything from the last contract?

The owners aren't happy with the results of the last CBA.  So obviously they aren't going to give up a whole lot.   On the other hand the players did extremely well.  After giving up 24 percent in year 1 of the previous CBA the hard cap went from 40 to around 70 million? That's almost an 80 percent increase if I'm doing the math right.  Not too bad for the players, don't you think?

Bettmans never dealt with a guy like fehr before, its becoming quite apparent.

redwing maybe it would help the owners position if they held a press conference and said:  "Last time we forced you to accept a CBA that we shoved down your throat.  We would like to admit that we were a bunch of dickheads that didn't know shat from shinola and we would like you to save us from our own stupidity and that moron Bettman who told us we were getting a great agreement"!!

  We would like to admit that we were a bunch of dickheads that didn't know shat from shinola and we would like you to save us from our own stupidity and that moron Bettman who told us we were getting a great agreement"!!

Kinik this is where I think you and I have our disconnect little issue.  You told me a long time ago you have plenty of experience in or with unions.  That being said you of all people should know a union president and union leaders should represent the entire union membership to the best of their ability, not the select few.  Fighting tooth and nail for UFA's to be allowed to sign contracts longer then 5 years which allows owners to circumvent the salary cap and create an advantage over manyh others is stupid considering it only benefits a very small percentage of the players.

I'll tell you what man. If the NHLPA puts the owners latest offer to a vote and a large majority of the players turn it down then I'll flip-flop faster then you've ever seen anybody flip over to the other side.  I'll immediately back the players instead of the owners because I'll be able to say Fehr did the right thing.  I'll be able to say he put the owner's offer to a vote and showed good faith by looking out for the majority of his membership and not the select few who would benefit from the long term deals he's demanding. And I'll be able to say that a large majority of the players are sticking to their guns and feel exactly like Fehr feels. 

But what I'm seeing right now is Donald Fehr and a few high profile NHL players holding the rest of the membership hostage.

As for Bettman, at least I can say the owners have his back and have voted against the NHLPA's offers in the past.  I can't say the same for the players who haven't had the chance to speak their mind and vote on anything quite yet.

Why do you need a majority of the players to turn it down.  Commissioner Jacobs only needs 25% of the owners to turn down the union.

kinik, the owners offered a contract, the players rebutted with something that will not happen.  The front-loading/rear-ending contracts that will help Miller/Toews.  Go figure.

The players haven't voted on any proposal.  Fehr rules the roost.

The owners hands pop up in the air when the puppeteer Jacobs pulls up on the "Reject" string.

Kinik, it is fine that we disagree, but why has the players union not had a vote?

In labour talks that I have been involved in a vote is not taken by the membership until the executive committee brings a recomendation to the membership that the executive committee recommends for acceptance.  I doubt very much that all owners have voted on every offer proposed by the union or offers that Bettman and his team have proposed to the union.  If the two negotiating teams come to an agreement it will then be presented to the rank and file of both sides for approval/rejection.
 

In labour talks that I have been involved in a vote is not taken by the membership until the executive committee brings a recomendation to the membership that the executive committee recommends for acceptance.  I doubt very much that all owners have voted on every offer proposed by the union or offers that Bettman and his team have proposed to the union.  If the two negotiating teams come to an agreement it will then be presented to the rank and file of both sides for approval/rejection.

How many labor talks have you participated in where turning down management's proposal results in an immediate loss of 1 years salary for every employee you are representing?  I bet in the real world you'd put that up for a vote very quickly or be tortured and beaten by your own membership.

Quit comparing the owners process to the players.  The owners may not vote on every NHLPA proposal but the owners and Bettman have had multiple meetings over the last year where everybody was in the room.  The owners have given Bettman instructions and parameters.  The union on the other hand has never even once held a meeting with all 700 members in a room or communicated with all of its members.  Big difference.

It wasn't so long ago that union bosses were lost to the desert or concrete crypts.  Sometimes egos do not benefit the members.

What is hilarious is that I'm perceived as a Owners fan.  I am a union carpenter and understand the difference of making money for my employer or sucking them dry.  Players fan's that have no clue for business just think of their favorite player.  That favorite player from another team will get signed by your team for 13 years and get hurt.  You will be stuck for a decade trying to rebuild.

I was a union President for many years.  I represented, along with my team, the membership in contract talks with the company including some using federal mediators.  I have represented, along with lawyers, the membership in courts of law.  After extended negotations between our team and the company team I recommended to and was backed by the membership to strike against the company.  What is your experience and involvement in such processes?

Every team in the NHL has a player representative that represents that teams players, communicates with them and when necessary conducts their vote.  If you believe that Fehr and his team have not received the confidence of the membership and the authourity to conduct negotiations for them as they deem to be in their best interest then you know even less about union structure than I thought you did which was at about zero. 

Kinik, as having been involved with union strikes in Las Vegas and Portland, I am very familiar with the negotiating committees.  They are not above the membership.  If members feel that the committees are not doing due diligence, they can instigate a vote.  If the union quells such vote, there are suits applicable.  A vote needs to be put forth according to  Roberts Rules of Order.  Stand down Kinik.

"If members feel that the committees are not doing due diligence, they can instigate a vote".  Agreed.  Since the players have not instigated such an action they obviously feel that the committee is doing due diligence.  Stand down rediis.

See this is the bullshi? that you get from union reps.

So Chris Higgins could call for a vote or any other player in need?  I think we all should pound these little boy's.  Just my thought. :)

If you want to get "bullsh****....." check the intelligence of the guy that is using the "gestapo" in his posts.  Did anyone see Fehr wearing jackboots and a brownshirt while goosestepping into the meeting.  Some people must not know what the gestapo were.

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"If members feel that the committees are not doing due diligence, they can instigate a vote".  Agreed.  Since the players have not instigated such an action they obviously feel that the committee is doing due diligence.  Stand down rediis.

If the union reps don't instigate a vote then it's not gonna happen.   The membership as we speak is spread across a few countries and God only knows how many cities.  They aren't going to instigate anything.

If Fehr and his clowns are communicating as well as you say they are with the rest of the union and if they are on board with what the union is doing they are fools for not voting on the owners most recent offer.  This would be their chance to let the owners know how serious they are and prove they stand united.

The only reason a vote is not being held is Fehr and his clowns know there is a damn good chance the players sign off on the owners latest offer.  And that's something Fehr isn't willing to let happen.

Right now I'm watching "The Mentalist".  I doubt that even he would not claim to be as good a mind reader as you.  Do you have any actual facts that the union is not united.  Any proof that the members are not rceiving communications.  Any proof that Fehr's team are clowns.  Anything of substance other than your renowned ESP.

Nobody gives a damn about 3rd and 4th line players, they're easily replaceable, the game revolves around the crosby's, ovechkins, and Kane's, if they're not happy, nothing's getting done, end of story, carcillo aint calling the shots anytime soon, sorry.

YO! Santa!... Bring me some NHL hockey. Ive been good...once.